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 ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700

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ChrisH

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Wed May 29, 2013 6:22 pm

I spoke with Nate from Alba. That man has to hate me... Laughing

I told him about the oil consumption issue. I told him that it runs amazing and had excellent power. I told him that it is using oil and that is the only issue I am having.

He suggested doing some exploratory surgery, starting at the very top
- Check the intake and exhaust ports to ensure the valve seals are ok
- Check the piston cylinder for scoring

He then said if everything is checking out to very carefully pull it apart to check the rings.
- Are the gaps ok?

Nate said that since the power is good that the top ring is probably good. He said he would look real hard at those oil rings. Many times folks "roll" the center wafer ring when installing the upper and lower sandwich rings.

I said, "What do you mean, 'roll' a ring?"

He said that it is easy to let one of those waves overlap upon installation and mess everything up. Nonetheless, it looks like I am going to have to tear this bad boy apart and check things out. It's not what I had in mind, but I am afraid to keep pouring oil in it as something big might blow up in the bottom end and I am not really in a position to split the cases.

Just let me keep telling myself,
"This is supposed to be fun..."
"This is supposed to be fun..."
"This is supposed to be fun..."
"This is supposed to be fun..."

Ok, I am good now.
Razz

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Wed May 29, 2013 6:27 pm

you would have to pay for this training at ITT....lol

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Wed May 29, 2013 6:32 pm

WV Hot Rod Rhino wrote:
you would have to pay for this training at ITT....lol
You are a funny man, yet I keep coming back for more.
Don't they make medication for this?
Dancing Banana

And trust me, this tuition is well covered. I swear you and Alba and the rest of the aftermarket companies are in bed with Yamaha. I'm going to spend more on the mods than on the Rhino. Just don't tell my wife that.
lol!


...now let me see where I left my meds....

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Wed May 29, 2013 11:44 pm

wish the best of luck to ya Chris. Been following your build closely. I hate to say it but with all due respect, your little problem is why I have not got the balls to open my 700 cus it is so dependable. I keep telling myself when she blow's I'll do it up. Do I want more power of course I do, but being 30 miles in the sierras with no cell keeps me from opening her up. I used to dick with my 427 chevy all the time and all I did was work on it so maybe I actually learned a lesson....prolly not...lol.. hope you get it dialed in so you can enjoy your riding season

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Wed May 29, 2013 11:58 pm

Sorry Chris, but you seem to take it well, just keep the med bottle close as well as the computer and phone and let us know what you find , remember this is fun...

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:54 am

Chris hang in there , an yes this is fun jocolor fun jocolor fun jocolor , but the experience your getting is priceless .

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:07 pm

ASPENDELL ROVER wrote:
wish the best of luck to ya Chris. Been following your build closely. I hate to say it but with all due respect, your little problem is why I have not got the balls to open my 700 cus it is so dependable. I keep telling myself when she blow's I'll do it up. Do I want more power of course I do, but being 30 miles in the sierras with no cell keeps me from opening her up. I used to dick with my 427 chevy all the time and all I did was work on it so maybe I actually learned a lesson....prolly not...lol.. hope you get it dialed in so you can enjoy your riding season

I hear you, trust me, and no offense is taken. I knew that when you tear into the motor that you have to be able to deal with all the extra "stuff" that comes up along the way. The power gains are so good, that it would be hard for me to go back to stock. I suppose I still have a few lessons to learn... lol



So here's the latest in the saga.




I pulled the head off the motor this afternoon. After seeing Briki's fiasco with the nikasil liner flaking off the cylinder wall, I didn't know what I would find. My symptoms were just a motor that burns oil. The power was good, just burning about 1/2 to 3/4 quart every tank of fuel. Something is obviously not right.

Here is a look at the cylinder and the piston at bottom dead center





Here is a look at the under side of the head.





And here is a look down the exhaust runners.









I'm asking for a little help, since I cannot see anything obviously wrong at this point. Maybe you can see something that might not look right?

I wanted to stop at this point to see what you guys think. Pulling the cylinder and piston is the next step, and only a little more work. I want to check my rings.

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:27 pm

Maybe the gaps on the oil rings are lined up together,or both compression are lined up???

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:19 pm

is the top of the cylinder head and piston as oily as it looks? if it is i would say rings either lined up or something. cylinder wall look good from what i can see.

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Painted flat dark earth with black graphics
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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:21 pm

chuddly wrote:
is the top of the cylinder head and piston as oily as it looks? if it is i would say rings either lined up or something. cylinder wall look good from what i can see.


Yes, it is oily. I thought the same thing about there sure being quite a bit of oil in the "combustion" chamber.

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:30 pm

I think its the rings , may be the line up of the gap , need good ring compressor, Chris was it not smoking out the tail pipe

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Last edited by rhino727 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:30 pm

I would say rings then......either not seated or lined up gaps or something. Also there seems to be quite a bit of build up for the little bit of running you have been doing. Now that could be due to the oil as well but im just noting it. You will also notice that the top of the piston is washed cleaner where the fuel comes in....that says oil in the cylinder. sorry to say it but checking the rings is the next step.

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2006 Rhino 660

Mods done - rear seat out of a Jeep CJ7
Painted flat dark earth with black graphics
HID conversion
Trail Bright 10" LED bar (Thanks Flimmy!)
Quick detach snow plow
extended roll cage
4 point harnesses
Hunterworks CDI
700 belt
JBS sheave
14g weights
Purple spring
Angled steering wheel for better ergonomics
1" square steel tube doors with 1/8" aluminum skin.

Mods in progress -

Future Mods - Build complete enclosed cab, design and install heater and center console, more lights.
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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:05 pm

One trick that I have found that works well is to buy one size over rings and file them to spec, 8 times out of 10 the same size rings as the piston are always right at the limit on the gap to seal good. I have had very good results rebuilding top ends with the ring gap on the tight side of the spec for that engine.

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:07 am

Stuntmanmike wrote:
One trick that I have found that works well is to buy one size over rings and file them to spec, 8 times out of 10 the same size rings as the piston are always right at the limit on the gap to seal good. I have had very good results rebuilding top ends with the ring gap on the tight side of the spec for that engine.


The rings that are included with this package from Alba are all file to fit, except the oil rings which the CP booklet says are not able to be filed. Nate recommended that the top ring be gaped to .018" and the second ring be gaped to .020" These were exactly what CP recommended in the piston booklet. Since the oil rings were not adjustable, I simply installed them. Does this sound right?



Tonight, I pulled the cylinder and piston. I wanted to double check that I installed the rings correctly, that the rings were right side up, and that the gaps were not aligned. Upon disassembly, I checked the ring gap. The top and bottom rings were just as they were when I filed and installed them, .018" and .020" respectively. I also verified that the rings were installed right side up, which they were. Finally, I verified that the ring gaps were not lined up, and they were not. Everything checks out so far.

At least to me.
Please speak up if you see something that isn't right!




Here is the piston as it just came out of the cylinder




The dot on the ring is facing up




The oil rings. Notice that the center wafer ring does not overlap




The side of the piston







Here are two more pics of the cylinder, with the piston removed. I notice no scoring and no scratches.










The only thing I noticed when I removed the piston clip was a tiny piece of aluminum wedged in the grove between the opening on the piston clip. You might be able to barely see it in this pic I took before removal.




Here is the rogue piece on a sheet of [JBS] paper.





At this point, I still am unsure why my motor is burning oil. Can you help me?

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:15 am

Chris H Ive been reading along and you've been very good at keeping things straight and clean when you originally installed this you had quite a time with the rings if i recall,id be tearing it down as well after seeing the other BB kit post, I would wonder about the rings and maybe call or pm nate to look at these pics you've taken. another thought do you have a siphon break maybe bigger bore more suction to pull the oil from the valve cover area? did you replace the valve stem seals? not sure what the recommendation for them are, I didn't notice you spoke of smoke out the exhaust? i will go back and read again. good luck..

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:51 am

KJrhino wrote:
Chris H Ive been reading along and you've been very good at keeping things straight and clean

Thanks for the well wishes, and yes, this is my log of my thoughts and my experiences. I tend to get a lot of messages from folks who were asking the same questions as me when it comes to modifying a Rhino motor.

To answer a couple of questions about the burning oil:

Q: Do you have a siphon break bottle?
A: Yes, I purchased it with the 734cc kit from Alba.


Q: Did it smoke, and if so, where did you notice the smoke?
A: Yes, it was smoking. I initially noticed the smoke from the siphon break bottle. When I'd rev the motor, I'd see and smell a poof of smoke from the tiny filter coming from the siphon break. I also noticed some black soot on my exhaust pipes. The only way I could really see the smoke from the exhaust was when I let a buddy drive my Rhino. He accelerated hard from a stop and I noticed a little smoke. It also smelled rich/smokey in my garage.


Q: What kind of oil were you running?
A: I ran Yamalube 10-40 in the black jug and Yamalube 10-40 semi-synthetic in the silver jug.


Q: How soon after the build did you notice the motor using oil?
A: From the very get-go. The very first time I ran this motor I started it up in the garage and checked for leaks and made a quick zip around my yard and around my neighborhood. I checked the oil since it was a fresh build and made sure it was at the top of the crosshatched area on the dipstick. The first time out in the wild, I ran it hard and used nearly a full tank of fuel. I noticed the oil was down on the dipstick near the bottom of the crosshatched area. Each subsequent time I rode it thereafter, I noticed a similar trend- the harder I ran the motor and the bigger load on the motor, the more oil it used.


Q: What kind of air filter do you use, and do you think the motor got "dusted?"
A: I use a stock air box with a drop in replacement UNI filter. I clean the filter regularly, and I even put a heavy bead of grease around the filter lip at the bottom of the airbox to make a good seal. No, I do not believe I dusted my motor.


Q: Did you replace your valve stem seals when you built your motor?
A: No, they are stock, and my Rhino has about 250 hours and 1350 miles.




I hope this answers some questions. And let me say this again to everyone who has helped make this such an epic thread: Thank You! Did you know that when you google search "Rhino 734 big bore" that this thread is the #1 search result? That means people with Rhinos are coming here. I thank you for this long-term write up, for contributing to the tech, for providing good questions, and for giving a real life feel of what it's like to deal with these things... the good and the bad.

So, hopefully, I can find out what is causing me to burn oil.
And, hopefully, I can get this thing right.

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:16 am

I personaly disagree with the ring gap they recomend, That much gap is good for a super charged engine. I run all mine from .008 to .012, It has worked for me for years. My 2 cents.

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:34 am

x2 on the clearance

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:38 am

if your getting puffs out of the siphon break and some out of the tail pipe it HAS to be ring issue because those 2 exit points are on opposite sides of the motor so to speak. The tail pipe is of course on the compression side so if oil is getting into the cylinder (which you see it is by the coating on the head and piston and by watching and smelling the exhaust) you know it. The ONLY thing that keeps the oil out of the cylinder is the rings. Period ....end of sentence. I have to say that it seems like you have done the work well and followed the directions. Maybe Stuntmanmike has a point about the ring gaps being wide....dont know. But i can tell you it pretty much has to be a ring problem. I know you dont want to hear that because of all the ring problems you have already had. But there really cant be any other thing causing it. I hope you get it sorted quick and painless

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2006 Rhino 660

Mods done - rear seat out of a Jeep CJ7
Painted flat dark earth with black graphics
HID conversion
Trail Bright 10" LED bar (Thanks Flimmy!)
Quick detach snow plow
extended roll cage
4 point harnesses
Hunterworks CDI
700 belt
JBS sheave
14g weights
Purple spring
Angled steering wheel for better ergonomics
1" square steel tube doors with 1/8" aluminum skin.

Mods in progress -

Future Mods - Build complete enclosed cab, design and install heater and center console, more lights.
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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:59 am

Q: What kind of oil were you running?
A: I ran Yamalube 10-40 in the black jug and Yamalube 10-40 semi-synthetic in the silver jug.



if you put synthetic oil in it the rings will not seal.......18 and 20 is what i set mine at and my new motor has 500 miles already and has NOT used one drop of oil....rode 330 miles with shek and mike when it was brand new no miles and didnt even check it till we got back .....

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Hot Rod Rhino Sheave, Falicon 734 Cylinder, +6 Falicon Stroker Crank, Benchmark +1 Ported Head & T/B, JBS Deshrouded Valves, 10:1 CP Piston, 3D MSD, Dynatek Coil, Dual Muzzy's

If you need any help or have any questions give me a call 304-673-2602 or 304-877-3419
James Davis, 131 Davis Ct., Mt. Hope, WV 25880
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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:19 pm

So the consensus is that I need rings, regardless?

That's where my thinking is going at this point. Can I just get new rings, and reuse my cylinder, or do I need a new cylinder?

The stems on the exhaust valves have some funk on them. You can see it in the pic:



I gently touched it with a screwdriver and if flakes off. Can I clean up the head with brake parks cleaner? Or is this something not even worth fooling with? Since I got it apart, I figure I might as well make sure everything is good.

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:15 pm

clean it up..do you have a valve spring compressor...you could even get rid of the castings too

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If you need any help or have any questions give me a call 304-673-2602 or 304-877-3419
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KJrhino

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:31 pm

That's my thought was the synthetic oil I've always been told do not run it around a break- in situation on a rebuild I'm not sure if you can re hone it and see it if seals or re hone new rings for good measure( good luck from what we read previously ) and run black bottle 10- 40 yamalube what do the rest think? James? His gaps were that too

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:33 pm

Ya time to port it as well Chris .....

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PostSubject: Re: ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700   Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:39 pm

X2 Port and replace rings,cylinder should be good...maybe run a hone thru it lightly.

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ALBA 734 Big Bore for 2011 Rhino 700
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