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 Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!

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ChrisH

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PostSubject: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:10 am

I have been having all kinds of weird electrical issues with my 2011 Rhino 700. I first noticed the problem as a low battery reading on the digital display. The OEM meter was showing, at first, a volt or two lower than my Autometer gauge. A few times, I the engine would not accelerate past 6500RPM even though I have a MSD. I thought for sure my stator was going bad.

The problem worsened. My stock electronics like my 4WD would not work properly. I did some very crude testing with my voltmeter and saw that the batter was fine, just like my aftermarket gauge was indicating. So I checked all my fuses. They were fine - no corrosion or anything.

Very soon, the whole digital dash just got dim and showed multiple errors.



The motor seemed to run fine, the fan cycled on and off normally. My aftermarket accessories all functioned properly. My aftermarket gauge showed 14V+ when the engine was running. So somewhere the dash as losing power, had a poor connection, or bad ground.

To make a long story short, it was this relay causing the problem.



After I replaced the relay, everything was fine.

Here is a video I made showing the problem and the exact relay I replaced. Maybe this can help someone else.
Cheers!



Dancing Banana 

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:12 am

That's a great video and helpful, with amount of mud and water our machines see, water intrusion or corrosion is bound to happen to that one or one near by. Thanks for the tip Chris.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:51 am

Thanks for sharing!!!.good find...glad you got it fixed

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:01 pm

Thanks for sharing, Chris!

Is that dielectric grease on the relay?

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:39 pm

Glad u got it fixed,good video.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:10 pm

08Rhino450SE wrote:
Thanks for sharing, Chris!

Is that dielectric grease on the relay?
Yes, that is dielectric grease. When my Rhino was new, before I ever rode it, I greased all the electrical connectors. It's messy but worth it 2 years later now that I have 300+ hours of mud and dust.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:46 pm

the switch for the whip lights is awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 pm

ChrisH wrote:
08Rhino450SE wrote:
Thanks for sharing, Chris!

Is that dielectric grease on the relay?
Yes, that is dielectric grease. When my Rhino was new, before I ever rode it, I greased all the electrical connectors. It's messy but worth it 2 years later now that I have 300+ hours of mud and dust.
I was noticing that the contact lugs themselves did not seem to be greased? If not, that is the most important part of the connector greasing scheme. That is where the dissimilar metals are actually contacting and where the corrosion will occur, as can be seen as the green stuff in the picture. If you are worried about the dielectric insulating the contact point, don't worry about that. The grease is displaced at the points of actual contact and the grease fills the low spots that are not in contact anyway. It acts as a barrier for the water wicking it's way into the contact point.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:30 pm

Steve, I cleaned the relay up for beauty pictures... haha!


Ok, maybe I spoke too soon.
Sad 

My problem has manifested itself in a new way. Maybe you can help me think this through because I am stuck. My head hurts... lol



My problem is that whenever I turn on the headlights to the HI position, the entire dash goes dead.

Weird, I know! So I have done some experimenting. I have HID headlights. They are a single beam meaning that whenever you have the switch on HI or LO, the lights have power. I have never had a problem with the lights. They work great.

I unplugged the HID lights from the OEM triangle shaped connector under the hood for both the right and left bulbs and ballasts. I can turn the headlight switch to LO and the taillights illuminate normally. I turn the knob to the HI position and the taillights stay illuminated as normal.



The moment I plug in one or both of the HID lights, the dash goes dead just like it was before. What in the world?!?

The headlight HI/LO relay is good, and it clicks normally when you switch to high beams. I did replace it with a known good relay to be sure. Now here's were it also gets weird. The relay I replaced in the original post seems to be bad again. I replace it with a known good relay and all is well. Why did it go bad again?



I wonder is there is something going on that is causing me to go through these relays like candy. The fuses are good. My grounds are good.

Can someone help me understand what might be going on?
Essentially what is happening is any electrical load be it the 4WD or headlights seem to kill the power to the entire dash.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:10 pm

This sounds like the ground connection for the dash is a high resistance connection.  As long as you have lots of power, no lights on, the current can flow normally and the dash works.  When there is a higher draw of current to the lights, then the bad connection stops the dash from working properly.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:14 pm

ChrisH wrote:
Steve, I cleaned the relay up for beauty pictures... haha!...............

My problem is that whenever I turn on the headlights to the HI position, the entire dash goes dead.

Weird, I know! So I have done some experimenting. I have HID headlights. They are a single beam meaning that whenever you have the switch on HI or LO, the lights have power. I have never had a problem with the lights. They work great.

I unplugged the HID lights from the OEM triangle shaped connector under the hood for both the right and left bulbs and ballasts. I can turn the headlight switch to LO and the taillights illuminate normally. I turn the knob to the HI position and the taillights stay illuminated as normal.

The moment I plug in one or both of the HID lights, the dash goes dead just like it was before. What in the world?!?

The headlight HI/LO relay is good, and it clicks normally when you switch to high beams. I did replace it with a known good relay to be sure. Now here's were it also gets weird. The relay I replaced in the original post seems to be bad again. I replace it with a known good relay and all is well. Why did it go bad again?

I wonder is there is something going on that is causing me to go through these relays like candy. The fuses are good. My grounds are good.

Can someone help me understand what might be going on?
Essentially what is happening is any electrical load be it the 4WD or headlights seem to kill the power to the entire dash.
Hmmm, on your original post, it certainly looks like green copper corrosion on the copper colored tab....

On your new incarnation of a problem, I looked up the specs for the relay on the Omron website. It is a SPDT relay. The ratings are different for the Normally Open and the Normally Closed contacts. I don't know for sure on this, but I suspect the High Beams are on the lesser rated contact. That rating is for 10 Amps continuous. It would not be the inrush current because the relay is rated for 50 Amps for that. What is the current draw (or Wattage) of the combination of lights that you have on the circuit?



A couple of things were not clear on your post:
I assume things were originally working correctly when the switch was in Lo Beam position?
You are now on the 3rd relay, the original replacement went bad?
You say that the 4WD switch also kills the dash? Is this the digital dashboard module that quits? I gather that if you have everything off, but with the Rhino running, the digital dash works OK?

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:34 pm

Hold on a minute, The relay that you show on the first post only has 4 tabs on it. That means that it is a SPST relay. The picture that you show on the later post, which I got the Omron p/n from, is not the same relay. Which relay is failing? I'm suspecting you are replacing the relay that powers up the electrical system when you turn the ignition switch on. It could be that you have something wrong in your headlight high beam wiring that is overloading the main power electrical system. It is funny that it does not blow a fuse, though. Do a bit of detective work with an ohmmeter & voltmeter regarding the high beam circuit.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:57 pm

I knew you'd catch that!
The relay on the right is the correct relay, and it is the failed relay. 



Yes, the OEM relay is SPST. The other relay is a SPDT. I have a few of both on hand. I swapped the SPDT in place, temporarily to verify the relay was [one of the] bad part(s). 

What is happening is that the relay fails in a strange way. It's like it will operate normally but then open when a higher draw is demanded. Then I get the dim dash screen or the like and no 4WD. The relay has also partially activated with the key off, so I'll walk out in the garage and the dash will be lit up or be dimly lit. Changing the relay fixes the immediate issue for a week... or maybe 6 months...

That relay powers everything up. It has a heavy red power wire and brown ground wire. If this relay fails, everything fails: the dash, the 12V receptical, and the 4WD switch. I'm not certain but I think you can still start the engine and drive. When the relay failed in the field, I still was able to drive home, but the engine wanted to hi-idle and it just didn't run 100%. 

Anyway, these are the symptoms. 

The headlights are Eagle Eye 35W HID lights. I've run them for a year or so with no problem. I just noticed the coincidental electrical problems when I tried to turn on the lights. And just for the record, the lights only ignite when the switch is in the HI position. The low beam only lights the tail lamp. The green wire to the head light terminates; that is why the lights only function on HI. 

All my add on electronics are wired through a separate fuse block. The only tap in the factory wiring is a tap from the 12V accessory receptical which activates the aftermarket fuse block with the key in the ON position. 

Thanks so much for the help. 
And yes, this would be the 3rd relay.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:16 am

When you say the relay dies, does the click no longer sound  ?  If the coil is burning up, more than likely this may be the only ground path for the voltage.  Once it goes away, stuff will not work properly and some items may be dim because of the voltage bleeding thru.  Check your grounds !!
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:40 am

The steady state draw of the 35W HID's should not be causing any sort of problem. They are the same current draw as stock. However HID's do have a much larger startup current draw. That might be contributing to this issue. You might consider powering your lights from your aux fuse block. IMO, the best approach would be to power the HID's with a relay, using the existing wire that is now going to the HID to power the relay coil instead. That disturbs the stock wiring the least and also takes that HID startup load off of the headlight switch as well.

It might be worthwhile to see if you cannot find the manufacturer's rating on that failing relay. If Yamaha skimped in it or somehow a lesser relay got put in along the way, it may be simply overstressed. I would think that you want at least a 30A relay there since it is powering essentially everything. I believe that you can probably find a 40A rated relay that will fit there.

You certainly have me stumped on this one. It is not at all obvious what could be going on there. An ammeter in line with the power feed to the system could be very helpful, but you would need one capable of, say, 30 Amps or more.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:51 am

varmint10 wrote:
When you say the relay dies, does the click no longer sound  ?  If the coil is burning up, more than likely this may be the only ground path for the voltage.  Once it goes away, stuff will not work properly and some items may be dim because of the voltage bleeding thru.  Check your grounds !!
When it fails, the relay does not click any longer.

When that main relay begins to fail, because it seems to power other electrical circuits, it makes the other relays rapidly click. Perhaps that is the reason some of the other relays have failed.

My ground connections at the battery and at the motor are good. I have added an additional ground cable from the motor to the frame and from the battery negative post to the frame.

I did have my OEM ground pigtail burn up a year ago. It melted some wires even back into the harness. I repaired that mess and it has been good ever since. Now this one relay seems to be giving me fits. I almost sounds like a high resistance connection. I hope there isn't a problem inside that wiring harness where I had to make a repair. That was a major, major ordeal to get at.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:38 am

ChrisH wrote:

............. My ground connections at the battery and at the motor are good. I have added an additional ground cable from the motor to the frame and from the battery negative post to the frame.

I did have my OEM ground pigtail burn up a year ago. It melted some wires even back into the harness. I repaired that mess and it has been good ever since. Now this one relay seems to be giving me fits. I almost sounds like a high resistance connection. I hope there isn't a problem inside that wiring harness where I had to make a repair. That was a major, major ordeal to get at.
What did you do with the pigtail connection to the battery negative terminal?

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:13 pm

I repaired it.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:12 pm

ChrisH wrote:
I repaired it.
So, you left it connected to the negative battery terminal?

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:14 pm

Yes, I just repaired it with a heavier wire to the battery, attaching the end to the OEM location inside the wire harness under the dash.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:40 pm

ChrisH wrote:
Yes, I just repaired it with a heavier wire to the battery, attaching the end to the OEM location inside the wire harness under the dash.
The reason that I asked, is that is the return path for all of the stock electrical grounding. In particular, it is the return path for the stock headlight wiring which seems to be triggering your relay malfunction episodes. It is carrying the return current for your HID startup load spike. The big battery cable grounds directly to the frame do not enter into the picture, except for circuits that are directly connected to the frame. You could connect wires from the black wires at the headlight connector to a known good chassis ground. You can leave the black wires connected to the wire harness as this new wiring would be a parallel ground connection, which would not hurt anything. In fact, it could accidentally improve your wire harness ground by giving it another path to the battery from the far end of the loop, as it were.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:02 pm

Mine is also grounded to the battery,working fine foe now but I still have added a heavier ground frame to engine and a large stud on the frame as an extra chasis  ground to the battery.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:41 pm

ChrisH wrote:
Yes, I just repaired it with a heavier wire to the battery, attaching the end to the OEM location inside the wire harness under the dash.
That has got to be the problem, nothing has a good ground except engine and starter. Somewhere under the dash you have a bad ground.  I would run a new wire direct to battery, not using the connector they have on the heavy wire.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:45 pm

Here's a little look at the relay the keeps giving me fits. I ever so carefully cut the plastic case to see what is happening. Take a look:

Here's the relay




And above is a video to see what is happening. You can see and hear it.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino 700 Electrical Problem - Solved!   Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:59 pm

I really believe it is the dash ground.  The power relay is not failing because the coil is burning up. Somewhere there is a circuit that is letting current flow back thru it (bleeding) so everything works. But when the current demand is higher there is no path to ground.  The power relay may even drop out because of insufficent current to stay energized. Find a place on the back of the dash to jump a wire directly to ground on the battery.

Do you have a volt meter ?
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