starting issues

hey guys i have an 06 686 and im having problems starting it. when i turn it over the starter relay clicks and it turns over once acting like the battery is dead and if i hold the key over to start a ground wire starts to smoke. i will take a pic of it later. ive checked the battery its charged and i have had it test to c if the cranking amps were good and it it dint have a dead cell. i ordered another starter relay but it hasnt came in yet. does anyone have any info that wold hepl me?????????


thanks

Does it start with the charger on it?

no

That sucks, mine had the same symptoms but it was the battery.

Did you do any mods before it started having issues?
How old is the battery?

If you believe it is another problem, pull the starter and check it out. I have seen some have a seal failure, allowing oil inside the starter. Others the bushing needed greased or the brushes were bad.

all i have done is put an alternator on it and dual 2 brothers exhaust. ive even unhooked the alternator. but im lost. hopeing its the starter relay i have one on order

it sounds like the starter is bound up and stuck. there might be a magnet inside that is broke

Could it be out of time ?

txgrown1404 wrote:

all i have done is put an alternator on it and dual 2 brothers exhaust. ive even unhooked the alternator. but im lost. hopeing its the starter relay i have one on order

Did you jump the relay to see if it will start?

txgrown1404 wrote:

........and if i hold the key over to start a ground wire starts to smoke. i will take a pic of it later........

You should not have any smoking wires. Get onto that pic and let's see what wire this is. And, don't be trying to start it until you get that wire fixed.

how do u upload a pic to here?

In the reply box at the bottom of the page click on the 4th icon to the left of the smile face. Host it and then copy and paste the address bar, one of the three can't remember which one.

see the little black wire running to the negative post? that is the one that is smoking . whats crazy is it was starting fine just last week. sometimes when i would turn the key over it wouldnt turn over then i would let off and try again and it would crank over.....

https://i.servimg.com/u/f71/18/22/00/16/bat210.jpg

here is another pic its the wire that u can see the brass connectors. it run into the wiring harnness

OK, I thought that it might be that wire. What is likely to be happening is that the big black battery cable has a poor connection at the other end where it attaches to the engine cases. If the voltage cannot find its way back to the battery negative terminal through the black battery cable it will try to find another path. That path is likely to be to the frame or one of the small black wires that are hooked up to switches and sensors on the engine. That path leads the current flow into the grounding daisy chain within the wire harness. In the harness it then flows into that small black wire to get to the battery negative terminal. The current flow for the starter motor is much more than the small black wire can handle and it burns up.

So, check all of the the big battery cable connections, especially at the engine case end. Clean and scrape any corrosion off of the mating surfaces and, ideally, coat the surfaces with dielectric grease before putting it back together again.

If you do find that is a problem it should crank again and if the little black wire survived, it should start and run. Give us a report if successful and we will start talking about improving the grounding setup so that cannot happen again.

thanks steve i was hoping you would chime in. i will check the connections tomorrow and get back with yall..

Alright. Here is a pix showing the location of the engine case grounding point, just in case you have trouble finding it. It is on the passenger side of the engine and the cable is a bit hidden behind the extra wires that I have added. The 10 gauge white wire is what I would recommend as part of a grounding improvement, which we can talk about later.

well checked the engine case grounding point and it was loose. tightened it and it cranked right over. i appreciate all the help. steve i see where you ran the white wire, is that what i should do to help with the grounding?

txgrown1404 wrote:

well checked the engine case grounding point and it was loose. tightened it and it cranked right over. i appreciate all the help. steve i see where you ran the white wire, is that what i should do to help with the grounding?

I'm glad that it worked out so well for you. Yes, a decently sized independent ground from battery negative to a bare spot on the frame is the primary fix for that wimpy ground that is provided on the stock setup. The second part of it is to disconnect that wimpy ground wire from the battery negative terminal and attach it to the frame instead. Inspect and repair any damage that you may see in that part of the wiring. Make sure that both new frame attach points are scraped bare of paint and the joint is waterproofed with dielectric grease as you bolt the connection together. One thing to be careful of in any and all electrical grounding to the frame is that there is a good electrical path to the welded main chassis. Some frame members are simply bolted onto the main chassis paint to paint and there is no real gaurantee that you have a good connection. Visually check the member that you are attaching to, in order to satisfy yourself that the connection is well made.

The 2 changes above insure that that starter load (and any accessory loads) has no chance of passing through the wire harness to cause harm. The new primary ground connection should be at least 10 gauge wire, in my opinion (some have used 2 runs of 12 gauge wire, being easier to get). My preference in location is where you see it in the picture because it essentially helps ensure that the battery ground is gone from the system if that battery ground connection fails at the engine case (no possibility of starter overloading any of the wiring). Also, the frame there is definitely part of the main welded steel chassis. Others have simply run heavy wire from the battery negative terminal to the frame member in the local vicinity (which I believe is bolted in?). My only real qualm with that is the same exact scenario can happen as you experienced, other than it is a perhaps 12 gauge wire (?) that is carrying the load. If it is done this way it really should be 6 gauge wire to match the rest of the starter circuit, just in case of this failure mode.

Well, there you have it. Any questions, feel free to ask.

SteveS wrote:

txgrown1404 wrote:

well checked the engine case grounding point and it was loose. tightened it and it cranked right over. i appreciate all the help. steve i see where you ran the white wire, is that what i should do to help with the grounding?

I'm glad that it worked out so well for you. Yes, a decently sized independent ground from battery negative to a bare spot on the frame is the primary fix for that wimpy ground that is provided on the stock setup. The second part of it is to disconnect that wimpy ground wire from the battery negative terminal and attach it to the frame instead. Inspect and repair any damage that you may see in that part of the wiring. Make sure that both new frame attach points are scraped bare of paint and the joint is waterproofed with dielectric grease as you bolt the connection together. One thing to be careful of in any and all electrical grounding to the frame is that there is a good electrical path to the welded main chassis. Some frame members are simply bolted onto the main chassis paint to paint and there is no real gaurantee that you have a good connection. Visually check the member that you are attaching to, in order to satisfy yourself that the connection is well made.

The 2 changes above insure that that starter load (and any accessory loads) has no chance of passing through the wire harness to cause harm. The new primary ground connection should be at least 10 gauge wire, in my opinion (some have used 2 runs of 12 gauge wire, being easier to get). My preference in location is where you see it in the picture because it essentially helps ensure that the battery ground is gone from the system if that battery ground connection fails at the engine case (no possibility of starter overloading any of the wiring). Also, the frame there is definitely part of the main welded steel chassis. Others have simply run heavy wire from the battery negative terminal to the frame member in the local vicinity (which I believe is bolted in?). My only real qualm with that is the same exact scenario can happen as you experienced, other than it is a perhaps 12 gauge wire (?) that is carrying the load. If it is done this way it really should be 6 gauge wire to match the rest of the starter circuit, just in case of this failure mode.

Well, there you have it. Any questions, feel free to ask.

hey steve im running the regular battery and i also have a second full size gell cell battery with an isolator with all my accessories running to the gel cell. my question is does the stator run to the isolator and charge both batteries or how does that work? i have have an alternator also. would it be a go ideal to run the alternator to the gell cell and eliminate the isolator and just let the stator maintain the starting battery? i'll post a pic of the battery setup now. this is how i bought the machine and im trying to get it setup right ?

txgrown1404 wrote:

hey steve im running the regular battery and i also have a second full size gell cell battery with an isolator with all my accessories running to the gel cell. my question is does the stator run to the isolator and charge both batteries or how does that work? i have have an alternator also. would it be a go ideal to run the alternator to the gell cell and eliminate the isolator and just let the stator maintain the starting battery? i'll post a pic of the battery setup now. this is how i bought the machine and im trying to get it setup right ?

In looking at your pix it looks like you have a separator relay (contactor) between the two battery + terminals. It does not look like it is a 'smart' automatic 'Voltage Sensing Relay', but rather a simple relay (probably controlled by the ignition switch?). I cannot be sure just looking at the pix as to the 'smartness' of the relay, perhaps you can tell? Are there any identifying marks, manufacturer I.D. or model numbers on the relay? A smart relay will have an electronics module associated with it that controls the relay coil by sensing the voltage on the primary battery.

First, maybe a little spiel on terminology. What is commonly called an 'isolator' is usually meant to identify a 'diode isolator' which has 3 big terminals (marked Alternator, Primary and Auxilliary or similar terms). What is called a 'separator' is usually a large relay which has mechanical contacts that make or break the connection between the batteries. A 'contactor' the name given to a very large relay that is meant to control large currents without damaging the internal contacts. Examples of 'contactors' would be the 'starting relay' in the Rhino, the 'contactor' that controls a winch, or what is commonly called a 'solenoid' in an automobile (short for solenoid contactor/relay). All of these terms have very similar english language meanings which makes the whole issue potentially very confusing to talk about.

The real reason that an isolator/separator is used is to prevent a rare (but dangerous) situation from occuring while the machine is just sitting un-tended. One of the batteries may develop an internal shorted cell (or multiple cells) which draws power from the good battery and overheats the 'failed' battery. Messy (spewing battery acid can cause damage) and potentially able to start a fire. A second thing that an isolator/separator can do is prevent an auxiliary load from draining the primary battery while the engine is not running or the charging circuit is unable to keep up with the current draw. The most current hungry thing that is commonly used is a winch, which under a difficult pull, draws much more current than the starter motor and does it for potentially very long time.

Having 2 working battery charging sources (stator AND a separate alternator) is unusual in most machines. This is absolutely the best solution of all. Indeed do run the stock charging system to the primary battery (keep the original charging system intact) and run the alternator output to the auxilliary battery alone. Disconnect the connection between the 2 batteries such that the 2 circuits are independent of each other. It would be a good monitoring scheme to put separate voltmeters on each of the circuits, such that you will be able to spot any problems with either system right away.

At the risk of complicating an already complicated discussion: You can even keep the cross-battery contactor where it is, but control it with a dedicated (momentary acting or 'hidden' ?) switch such that you can 'jump start' the primary battery with the aux. battery. This could be neat if the primary battery should fail while you are out in the boonies.

Last, here is a schematic of what looks like your wiring is set up as right now:

VERY well put !